| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| CAMS_BLUE |
Posted - 07/18/2008 : 14:44:46
I need advice. My son is now 11 and has not had an MMR. The reason being that I have watched my nephew descend into autism after his MMR and I am afraid that whatever susceptibility my sisters son had will be shared by my son. Now I am wondering about giving my son a single measles vaccination as we are going to be living abroad in a place that has a higher incidence of measles than the UK. He is normally healthy, fit and eats well, he is the top of his class, I am terrified of ruining his life by giving him a measles vaccine or by not giving him one. What are the extra risks of contracting measles later in life ie in the teenage years? Do the risks of complications increase with age? Can I deliberately contrive for him to have measles naturally? How would I do that? Does anyone still have measles partys? Does anyone in Scotland know of anywhere to get help??? A lot of questions, hope someone has some guidance for me. Thanks |
| 15 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Suba |
Posted - 07/28/2008 : 15:30:57
Some good advice with regards to vitamin C and child health.
Vitamin C dosage
Take your body weight or the weight of your child, divide by 10, and then multiply by 200 mg to get the minimum dose of vitamin C. So for a child who weighs 20 lbs, you divide 20 by 10, result 2, then multiply by 200, result 400 mg per day minimum dose. For an adult who weighs 150 lbs, divide by 10, result 15, then multiply by 200, result 3000 mg per day minimum dose.
For increased dosage if the child is ill or his or her immune system is compromised, you can provide up to 100-200 mg per 10 lbs of body weight for each individual dose, up to 5 doses per day, checking for bowel tolerance: if diarrhea occurs, reduce dosage until it subsides and then continue with a reduced dosage. Vitamin C can save the child's life in cases of severe influenza or pneumonia. (Always confer with a competent pediatrician if a child is severely ill! It is important to find a pediatrician who believes in vitamin C, so that if the child is hospitalized they will continue with vitamin C supplementation.) Once the child is well, gradually reduce vitamin C to the dosage you use regularly.
For vaccinations: In general, I recommend that parents seriously consider not vaccinating their children, and certainly never to vaccinate against hepatitis B, because the vaccine has a horrific reputation for harming children, and hepatitis B is both extremely rare and also quite curable. Vaccines in general contain both live (but "attenuated") viruses and a brew of toxic chemicals and preservatives, sometimes including mercury (thimerosal). This places a huge burden on the child's immune system, and quickly depletes vitamin C. Many SIDS victims have died shortly after vaccinations.
If you decide to vaccinate your child, increase the vitamin C dose dramatically several hours before and for several days after the vaccination to prevent vitamin C depletion and so that the child's immune and detoxification systems will have a chance to kill the viruses and neutralize the toxins. Demand non-thimerosal, single-dose, single-virus vaccines; the multiple-virus vaccines such as DPT and MMR have the worst reputations regarding harm to infants.
http://www.cqs.com/sids.doc
Also Vitamin C deficiency and child abuse allegations
Blood plasma vitamin C levels and whole blood histamine levels show a remarkable inverse relationship, both in guinea pigs and in humans, but many toxins and other factors, including vaccinations and inoculations also cause an increase in the blood histamine level. We are all aware of the effects of increased tissue histamine concentrations, revealing themselves as nettle rash, hay fever or asthma, but an increased blood histamine level can be a silent killer. We now must appreciate that the degree of histaminemia and the resultant capillary fragility can result from a concatenation of circumstances. We may have an infant with a borderline vitamin C depletion, which on its own would have been relatively innocuous, now becoming more severe as a result of infection or some other stress; even the common cold or coryza can halve the blood plasma vitamin C concentration in 24 hours. Furthermore, we now know that heavy metals like mercury, copper, or even iron ion excess can deplete vitamin C reserves, so we have to wonder about the effects of the mercurial antiseptic thimerosal used in some pediatric inoculants. Moreover, it has been shown that the toxins or toxoids of the usual inoculants cause increased blood histamine levels in animals. So we must consider the effects of all the inoculants given together to an infant already ill or vitamin C depleted; the blood histamine level, the capillary fragility and the likelihood of petechial hemorrhages will be the result of all these factors added together.
http://www.freeyurko.bizland.com/townsend.html
Sudden Infant Death - Eliminate With Vitamin C, Not Prison
258 convictions for killing children, with more than 50 parents still in prison, will be reviewed, according to an article in BBC News today. It is likely that many of the cases are not criminal offenses but a tragedy called Sudden Infant Death Syndrome (SIDS) or Cot Death, gone unrecognized and turned into human tragedies with courts, prisons and all the trappings of destroyed families and lives.
Fortunately there is now a move to review more cases than the 258 originally thought of which resulted in imprisoned parents. Thousands of parents whose children were taken into care may have their cases re-opened as part of a wider review of cot death legal cases.
Solicitor General Harriet Harman told MPs a review of civil proceedings under family law - believed to number up to 5,000 cases - was being considered.
Jonathan Campbell says that the cause of SIDS has been known for years and the elimination of the scourge may be a simple matter of supplying enough of one of the vital elements - vitamin C - to both mother and child.
A reminder of judicial abuse
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/wiltshire/3409183.stm |
| whatif |
Posted - 07/28/2008 : 14:37:48
quote:
[i]Originally posted by thomas p[/i]
[br]Dear Minority View,
Here's what the cochrane review (http://www.cochrane.org/reviews/en/ab001479.html) had to say
"Measles is a major cause of childhood morbidity and mortality. Vitamin A deficiency is a recognized risk factor for severe measles infections. The World Health Organization (WHO) recommends administration of an oral dose of vitamin A (200,000 international units (IU), or 100,000 IU in infants) each day for two days to children with measles when they live in areas where vitamin A deficiency may be present."
so, like I said, it's particularly relevant the 3rd world where Vit. A deficiency may be present. This doesn't refer to present-day britain any more than it did to 1950s or 1970s britain, where and when the death rate was about 1 in 4,000.
thomas p so naive. Interesting statement by thomas p: "so, like I said, it's particularly relevant the 3rd world where Vit. A deficiency may be present". MAY be present? No, thomas p, likely, if not certainly, present. One of many sources stating the huge problem in the developing world:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17016949?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_Discovery_RA&linkpos=5&log$=relatedarticles&logdbfrom=pubmed
Ever wonder if vitamin A deficiency occurs in the "developed" world thomas p? Ever hear of subclinical vitamin A deficiency (SVAD), or do you have to be blind, have stunted growth or suffering from a dry xerophthalmic eye before you'd consider giving someone who caught measles vitamin A?
A recent publication of a study done in China found..."In infants from the high socioeconomic area, the prevalence of suspected subclinical VAD was 38.0%, increasing to 59.5% in infants from the low socioeconomic area."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18402247?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum
"School-aged children can be considered at risk for VAD mainly of a subclinical level, even without some associated risk factors"
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18043701?ordinalpos=2&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum
"Prevalence of SVAD was 11.7%"..."Prevalence of SVAD and suspected SVAD was higher in children whose blood samples were collected within one week in-taking vitamin A-rich food (12.6%-22.6%) than those in-taking vitamin A daily (4.1%-10.0%), and higher in children suffering from respiratory infection, fever and diarrhea two weeks before their blood collection (15.2%-20.3%) than in those without those diseases (10.1%-11.1%)"..."More than half of children under six years old in China (50.9%) had vitamin A nutrition problem. Varied factors played roles to different extent in SVAD in children."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12410947?ordinalpos=27&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum
"Vitamin A deficiency is considered widespread health problem among children in developing countries. There are a limited number of studies related to the vitamin A status of children in Turkey. We studied serum vitamin A levels in 80 healthy children less than 2 years of age admitted to Dr. Sami Ulus Children's Hospital for measles immunization"..."We have shown that subclinical vitamin A deficiency is an important public health problem in Ankara, as approximately 30 percent of the children examined were found to have low levels of serum vitamin A (< 20 micrograms/dl)."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7502354?ordinalpos=73&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum
There's more thomas p, but let's end with this abstract from a study done in New York City in 1992:
"We therefore measured vitamin A levels in 89 children with measles younger than 2 years and in a reference group in New York City, NY"..."Vitamin A levels in children with measles ranged from 0.42 to 3.0 mumol/L; 20 (22%) were low. Children with low levels were more likely to have fever at a temperature of 40 degrees C or higher (68% vs 44%), to have fever for 7 days or more (54% vs 23%), and to be hospitalized (55% vs 30%). Children with low vitamin A levels had lower measles-specific antibody levels"...
"Our data show that many children younger than 2 years in New York City have low vitamin A levels when ill with measles, and that such children seem to have lower measles-specific antibody levels and increased morbidity".
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1285727?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_Discovery_RA&linkpos=3&log$=relatedarticles&logdbfrom=pubmed
Despite our "healthy appearance" thomas p, we are still deficient in many nutrients and micronutrients. Vitamin A is just one example...if you care why don't you check out Vitamin K and D deficiencies for a small start. I'm sure prof sir roy meadow has as he evaluates "shaken" babies for broken bones at various stages of healing, for example. Why am I so sure you ask? Aint it obvious how much prof's meadow and southall et al. care to get their facts straight? |
| jackie |
Posted - 07/25/2008 : 23:42:32
MinorityView:
You've summed it up so well. There is this perception from the outside that everything is fine - the system works. The diseases are presented as a real danger to every child and the vaccines are perfectly safe, monitored carefully and children are well looked after. If only.
We take calls every day from concerned parents. Many talk of being patronised or bullied and made to feel stupid for asking questions about vaccines.
When you are inside the system looking out and can see the flaws that are costing lives, children's lives, and the people in authority - the ones that have the power to change the system - ignore them, that is the culture shock. These people are charged with protecting the nation's health but rely on flawed statistics and talk of the importance of 'herd immunity'. Well, from where I'm standing thousands of individuals make up this 'herd', the DoH policy-makers may be interested in the herd but parents are interested in the individuals, namely their child. Look after each individual and the herd will take care of itself.
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| thomas p |
Posted - 07/25/2008 : 18:09:24
Dear Minority View,
Here's what the cochrane review (http://www.cochrane.org/reviews/en/ab001479.html) had to say
"Measles is a major cause of childhood morbidity and mortality. Vitamin A deficiency is a recognized risk factor for severe measles infections. The World Health Organization (WHO) recommends administration of an oral dose of vitamin A (200,000 international units (IU), or 100,000 IU in infants) each day for two days to children with measles when they live in areas where vitamin A deficiency may be present."
so, like I said, it's particularly relevant the 3rd world where Vit. A deficiency may be present. This doesn't refer to present-day britain any more than it did to 1950s or 1970s britain, where and when the death rate was about 1 in 4,000.
Also, to show I'm not cherry-picking, they did also say that all children under 2 were likely to benefit from reduced incidence of croup and from reduced pneumonia-induced mortality (but not not reduced pneumonia). But that's only for children under 2. Most people on the planet are over 2 years old and so it's not relevant to them. |
| MinorityView |
Posted - 07/25/2008 : 13:41:41
Thomas P
I'd be delighted if parents were knowledgeable about vaccine safety and contraindications. Most aren't. They trust their doctors. And doctors, in the U.S., trust the CDC, which encourages them to vaccinate children unless they are at death's door. With bad consequences in some cases.
Again, you are living in some alternate reality.
Further, I hope you realize that if parents catch on to the fact that doctors recommend vaxing sick children and that this isn't a safe practice, parents may start questionning all sorts of other stuff about vaccines. I don't think that putting the responsibility on parents is a good plan from the point of view of wanting high uptake of vaccines, frankly.
The Vitamin A for measles is commonly known.
The Vitamin C for pertussis isn't. But I know enough people who have tried it with good results to have reasonable confidence that it works. The only bad thing which can happen from an excess of Vitamin C is a mild case of the runs, so it isn't a risky thing to try. The only conventional treatment for pertussis is antibiotics, which doesn't do anything except prevent spreading the cough to more folks. No evidence that antibiotics shorten the period of coughing at all.
As it happens, my family doesn't seem to get symptomatic pertussis, despite a total avoidance of the vaccine. Since the illness is endemic in the U.S., with somewhere between 600,000 and 2,000,000 cases per year, I think it is fairly certain I've been exposed. In fact I know I was exposed. A few years ago I was working at a school where there was an outbreak.
Aged survivor of many years of alternative health care...and one vaccine, administered by a doctor without the consent of my parents, 50 years ago. |
| thomas p |
Posted - 07/25/2008 : 11:08:07
Minority view,
I know that the American education system is a bit shoddy, but surely you can read English.
I thought that I was perfectly clear when I wrote "The exclusion is generally based on the same criteria that one would use to decide whether or not to vaccinate one's child (e.g. you wouldn't take him or her to the doc's for their shots if they were already a bit poorly or if they were immune-compromised, so it's generally applicable, as long as your child isn't already seriously ill." (I've added emphasis here).
Please could you let me know what you think that this phrase means, if you think that it means anything other than 'the parents have the final say about when or whether to vaccinate'.
If you have your children with you, and they are poorly, then you can just refuse to take them for their vaccines because they are poorly and you can then either take them later or not at all. It's not rocket science. There are some doctors who are bad doctors who don't take the child's health into account at a given time, but others do; either way, it's up to the parents to decide.
Epilepsy isn't an imune disorder, so why wouldn't you vaccinate an epileptic child? I'm not asking for reasons why you oppose vaccination per se, but for epilepsy-specific reasons.
If memory serves, the Vitamin A thing was tried in the third-world where there are many malnourished children (although that could be faulty recall, please do correct me if I'm wrong). It wouldn't be applicable in the UK. Do you have any links to scienntific papers that support your vitamin c and fever-suppression claims? I'd be interested to read them. Didn't you have this discussion already with Becky? Do you or her have a link to it please?
*********************************************************************
Dear Janet,
You can have a vaccine at your doctor's surgery without ever having to involve any health visitors (who I don't hold in particularly high regard either).
The number of cases where parents have been accused of Munchausen's-by-proxy is very small. I fear that you may be getting your fears a little out of proportion (unless your health visitor is one with form of accusing parents of munchausen's-by-proxy, in which case you're very right to be worried).
These cases where children have been taken from their parents highlight very well the problems with in-group thinking and the need for genuinely independent oversight of social services. The problem is that CAFCASS appear (from the contact I've had with them over 3 years helping my sister-in-law deal with social services) to be rubbish and even more prone to this than anyone else. |
| MinorityView |
Posted - 07/24/2008 : 13:58:06
I see. Thanks Jabsadmin.
I am getting the feeling that ThomasP lives in Cloud Cookoo Land, where everything is done right with vaccines, rather than the real world, where vaccines are given with wild abandon and ill consequences are blithely ignored, or even hidden.
Aged survivor of many years of alternative health care...and no vaccines. |
| jabsadmin |
Posted - 07/24/2008 : 13:50:06
MinorityView:
'...So, in the U.K., is the standard to never vax a child who is under the weather?..'
We have had families contact us whose children were just getting over chickenpox or repeated infections; some still on antibiotics following an illness; one child had just had his tonsils removed; another child had ended up in intensive care for ten days following his first MMR vaccine and his paediatrician wanted to admit him into hospital when he reached pre-school age for a repeat MMR.
In this last example his parents contacted us and we suggested they ask their GP for an immunity check. The GP was happy to do so as he too was reluctant to give MMR again - that's why the paediatrician had become involved. The results came back showing the boy had antibodies for all three diseases.
Jackie
|
| MinorityView |
Posted - 07/24/2008 : 03:23:13
But Thomas, there are perfectly simple methods available to lower the risk of damage to an individual child from the illnesses. Vitamin A, for example, will work wonders in the case of measles. Avoiding any form of fever suppression eliminates a lot of problems from chickenpox. Vitamin C, in the form of sodium ascorbate, can do a lot to reduce the hazards of whooping cough.
What steps can a parent take to avoid vaccine damage?
I'm puzzled about the concept of leaving sick children unvaxed until they get better. In the U.S., the CDC recommends vaxing sick children, within certain rather generous limits. I'm constantly hearing from parents who have been encouraged to vaccinate children with, for example, heart disease. I've even heard of vaccines being recommended to children with epilepsy!
So, in the U.K., is the standard to never vax a child who is under the weather?
Aged survivor of many years of alternative health care...and no vaccines. |
| Janet |
Posted - 07/24/2008 : 01:27:22
Thomas P,
Contrary to what you have said, I don't believe ALL doctors are 'vaccine psychos' although I do believe not all health workers are of sound mind.
http://personalitydisorders.suite101.com/article.cfm/psychopathantisocial
Just out of interest Thomas, how would you define the character of someone who knowingly removes a child from caring innocent parents?
http://www.fassit.co.uk/vaccines_child%20_abuse.htm
|
| Becky Fisseux |
Posted - 07/23/2008 : 22:16:39
quote:
[i]Originally posted by Cybertiger[/i]
[br]quote:
Originally posted by Becky Fisseux
And could Cybertiger (as an expert in everything) tell us what the probablility of a child who doesn't get the MMR vaccine developing an autistic spectrum disorder is? Kind regards, Becky
Eh?
Sorry - mistyping. "Probability". Other than that, I think it's perfectly clear.
Kind regards,
Becky |
| Cybertiger |
Posted - 07/23/2008 : 19:19:51
quote:
Originally posted by Becky Fisseux
And could Cybertiger (as an expert in everything) tell us what the probablility of a child who doesn't get the MMR vaccine developing an autistic spectrum disorder is? Kind regards, Becky
Eh? |
| Becky Fisseux |
Posted - 07/23/2008 : 18:24:50
quote:
[i]Originally posted by Cybertiger[/i]
[br]quote:
Originally posted by thomas p
In package inserts there are words which are commonly used to define risk but which (e.g. common, rare, etc.) which have specific numerical ranges associated with them. You can use this to judge the genuine levels of risk for yourself.
Package insert wording and what it means:
Word - - - - - - Proportion of patients experiencing the event
Common - - - - Between 1 in 10 and 1 in 100
Uncommon - - -Less than 1 in 100 to 1 in 1,000
Rare - - - - - - Less than 1 in 1,000 to 1 in 10,000
Very rare - - - Less than 1 in 10,000
As an expert in vaccinatory pharmacovigilance, I wonder if 'tom p' can tell us the probability of a child, any child, developing an autistic spectrum disorder after MMR. Could mercury be an added risk factor and have the calculations on that risk been done?
And could Cybertiger (as an expert in everything) tell us what the probablility of a child who doesn't get the MMR vaccine developing an autistic spectrum disorder is?
Kind regards,
Becky |
| Wanda |
Posted - 07/23/2008 : 16:16:43
quote:
[i]Originally posted by thomas p[/i]
[br]Hi Oscar's mum,
when you're reading the package inserts (which is a very good idea) and researching the diseases so that you can make an informed decision, don't forget to take note of the risks of the adverse effects mentioned there. In package inserts there are words which are commonly used to define risk but which (e.g. common, rare, etc.) which have specific numerical ranges associated with them. You can use this to judge the genuine levels of risk for yourself.
Package insert wording and what it means:
Word - - - - - - Proportion of patients experiencing the event
Common - - - - Between 1 in 10 and 1 in 100
Uncommon - - -Less than 1 in 100 to 1 in 1,000
Rare - - - - - - Less than 1 in 1,000 to 1 in 10,000
Very rare - - - Less than 1 in 10,000
Chances of winning the National Lottery are very rare. However, for a winner this could be a life-changing event. I don't buy lottery tickets, so my chance of winning is nil.
The effects of the MMR on my son have also been life-changing (definitely not for the better) despite the minimal chance that such things can occur. |
| Cybertiger |
Posted - 07/23/2008 : 16:00:22
quote:
Originally posted by thomas p
In package inserts there are words which are commonly used to define risk but which (e.g. common, rare, etc.) which have specific numerical ranges associated with them. You can use this to judge the genuine levels of risk for yourself.
Package insert wording and what it means:
Word - - - - - - Proportion of patients experiencing the event
Common - - - - Between 1 in 10 and 1 in 100
Uncommon - - -Less than 1 in 100 to 1 in 1,000
Rare - - - - - - Less than 1 in 1,000 to 1 in 10,000
Very rare - - - Less than 1 in 10,000
As an expert in vaccinatory pharmacovigilance, I wonder if 'tom p' can tell us the probability of a child, any child, developing an autistic spectrum disorder after MMR. Could mercury be an added risk factor and have the calculations on that risk been done? |
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