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T O P I C    R E V I E W
Aasa Posted - 07/17/2007 : 15:23:00
thisislondon.co.uk article
There is an opportunity to send comments.

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23404585-details/Are+vaccines+a+waste+of+time/article.do

15   L A T E S T    R E P L I E S    (Newest First)
Lola Posted - 02/02/2009 : 11:27:15
Just seen this thread & Jenny you are quite right..

heres the scenario: if a child contracts measles or a number of children do in a small location the, the media jumps on the bandwagon of reporting the "fear of deadly disease" it makes it to national media reporting quite often whereby the "created" fear feeds the greedy journalistic story for a "panic story" - sells more papers so money for them

it feeds the public conception & more "worried" parents rush to the vaccination clinics with their under 2s to get them "protected" so more money for big pharm

however, there are now 1:150 children being diagnosed with Autistic spectrum disorders in the uk thats 4,000 children per year based on our current birth rate.. or lets just break that down, thats nearly 11 children per day being diagnosed.

would you say that we are at an all time epidemic of autism.. but when do we ever hear about that in the media.???

imagine for just one moment that research actually came in to the open, unbiased conclusion that vaccination was indeed a major cause of autistic spectrum disorders...

what would happen next well, 30 - 40,000 families of under 10yr old autistic youngsters would clamour for compensation...the government cannot risk that at any cost - to them it is worth the denial & all the payments of disability living & carers allowance, special education & all the rest of it paid by you & me jolly tax payers.

they would rather have this, keep us officially in the dark & prop up big pharm.

once they loose the strong arm of the vaccination programme, like a house of cards... lots of things will come toppling down not least the fact that the little mistrust most people in the UK have of the government this will turn to huge mistrust.

end of the day money is the priority not health...
jennyr Posted - 08/09/2007 : 18:49:06
I think it is important to realise the people whose children have been damaged by vaccines also feel that the health authorities have been irresponsible in trivialising their experiences. Denying that vaccines have adverse reactions is irresponsible. The public should have unbiased information on which to base decisions about their children's health. Measles was not considered to be a serious illness in this country in the 50s, despite comments to the contrary. There needs to be rigorous, ongoing, independent research into the risk/benefit ratio of vaccines using proper control groups (ie comparing vaccinated with unvaccinated children). It is irresponsible to ignore and deny the adverse effects of vaccines. A public health policy that covers up iatrogenic illness is irresponsible.
Lee77c Posted - 08/09/2007 : 14:57:05
I didn't grow up in the 60's, 50's, 40's, 30's but I know people who did and you don't have to speak to many of them before you find someone with personal experience of how serious the consequences of childhood infections can be.

Deaths from some infectious disease were already in decline prior to immunisation becuase the 20th Century saw the biggest advances in modern medical science, nutirtion and sanitisation ever seen- that isn't hard to appreciate. However, the 99.5% reduction in the number of measles cases (and fall in related serious complications from measles) from pre- immunisation times was and continues to be due to vaccination.

"more kids died of the flu than measles back then (in the 60's)" Well that's hardly surprising as the UK was affected by 2 major influenza pandemics during the period 1958 - 1970 (Asian and Hong Kong 'flu), I would have thought this information would have been relevant enough to mention in the previous post?

This isn't mindlessy repeating the words of vaccine sales-people as the previous post has accused. This is my own oppion based on my own research of as much of the literature I can get my hands on, which incidentally is what brought me to this site in the first place. To suggest that anyone who doesn't agree with you is victim of 'mind-control' is arrogant to say the least.

While we are on the subject of looking at the literature, two of the people posting on this forum constantly direct us to the 'www.whale.to' webpages. Having read the author's bizarre, and often offensive views on other matters (including AIDS, gay people, the evils of feminism, mind control by alien races...), I feel that any reference to views, interviews and statistics paraded there should be taken with a very large pinch of salt.

I posted my original comment because I've seen how serious infectious diseases can be, and feel that to trivialise them and the benefits of immunisation in the way that some people have been doing is irresponsible.
barefoot1 Posted - 08/08/2007 : 17:20:19
I think a lot of the younger genereration forgets how when i was kid it was popular to take your child to "measles" party's. we all had it as kids,whole streets at the same time in the 1960s it was not considered a dangerous disease for healthy children and deaths were extremly rare, more kids died of the flu than measles back then, the death rate by then from measles had already dropped by over 95% WITH NO VACCINATIONS now they tell us its a killer disease to sell vaccinations.
I am with John measles is nothing compared to the potential complications of the toxic jab which cannot be treated, those extremely rare occasions when death from measles occurs, its due to underlying health conditions

in answer to Lee77 point Lee i grew up in the 1960s when almost all kids had measles and i know what happened as fact but you are only repeating words and theories written by those who want to sell vaccinations and cover up the deaths amd maimings.
Oh and peer reviewed medical papers a joke as the peers are all hand picked much like the police investigating the police.
How can you explain that for all childhood diseases the death rates had dropped by around 95% plus before the vaccinations were even inroduced?
I also think mentioning "conspiricy theories" is a cheap trick to play
as we on here are more concerned with conspiricy facts, a conspiricy is where 2 or more people get together to "conspire".
Drug companies have been found guilty of "conspiring" to fuddle test results, keep harmful side effects from tests results and even lie about eficay so please dont dont insult our intelligence by pretending these dont happen.

Big Pharma and their puppets in Government are the biggest threat to your families health and well being while they pretend to be the opposite.

A bit more on peer reviews http://www.whitehouse.gov/OMB/inforeg/2003iq/43.pdf

Childhood diesease death rates falling have nothing to with vaccinations. http://www.whale.to/vaccines/decline1.html
john Posted - 07/27/2007 : 17:50:28
Allopathy has to make a big song and dance about measles for obvious reasons. If they can't handle measles let the doctors who can do so!

And as I said many times before, MMR deaths excede measles deaths, and MMR disease exceeds anything measles ever did, and as Janet says, treating measles is a lot easier than autism and nasty bowel diseases.

And at the risk of boring myself to death by repetition, measles vaccination never eliminated measles deaths, so MMR vaccination wouldn't have prevented any of the measles situation in Switzerland, for one thing over 50% of those will have been vaccinated.

After three years of study, a Medical Working Group representing 180 Swiss medical doctors specializing in general medicine, internal medicine and pediatrics published an article in the Spring 1992 Journal of Anthroposophic Medicine entitled "The Immunization Campaign Against Measles, Mumps and Rubella, Coercion Leading to Uncertainy: Medical Objections to a Continued MMR Immunization Campaign in Switzerland," concluding that mandatory, mass vaccination with MMR vaccine is ineffective and dangerous.

'ineffective and dangerous'

But pretty obvious when you look at all of the evidence without blinkers. Mind you, you can't beat medical mind control

"network of psychopathic Health Professionals and Civil Servants"

Hit the nail on the head there http://www.whale.to/b/psychopaths_h.html best to know your enemy.

john

"There is a great deal of evidence to prove that immunization of children does more harm than good."---Dr. J. Anthony Morris, former Chief Vaccine Control Officer and research virologist, US FDA
Janet Posted - 07/27/2007 : 15:53:36
At least you can seek medical advice and treatment for these diseases unlike ailments caused by vaccinations - I know this from experience.

My trust in vaccinations was obliterated by a network of psychopathic Health Professionals and Civil Servants who foolishly attempted to cover-up a vaccine blunder involving my child.
Lee77c Posted - 07/27/2007 : 13:00:52
"Having a need to defend vaccination is pretty strange in someone, I presume, with no financial or pecuniary interest in the practice. Why would anyone feel the need to do that otherwise?" - John's view.

Contrary to some jaded opinions, there are people who belong to the scientific, medical and public health communities who believe in what they are doing and are committed to protecting the health of the population. I have my opinion because I know how serious infectious disease can be. Infectious diseases are not things of the past, they are not trivial matters and they can be a very real cause for concern particularly for children and more vulnerable members of the community.

At present there is a large measles outbreak in Switzerland. Ten per-cent of the 443 cases for which information was available required hospitalisation. Although no deaths have occured at present in this outbreak, seven per-cent were hospitalised with pneumonia as a complication, seven per-cent were suffering from Otitis media as a serious complication and one per-cent (four cases) were suffering from encephalitis (inflammation of the brain).

http://www.eurosurveillance.org/ew/2007/070726.asp#1

These are not lies, this is not scare mongering, they are simple facts.

"Do you think you need a medical education to understand the science, and a geology one isn't good enough? How absurd." quote from John.

No, I don't think you need a medical education to understand science. I believe that in order to understand science you need to thoroughly research the arguments for and against, taking into account the caveats and potential flaws on both side, then come to a carefully reasoned conclusion. Pre-judgment and bias chould have no place in scientific discussion. I am not a medic but I do know that the kind of sweeping generalisation that have been made in previous posts in this thread do not represent the whole picture and are misguided to say the least.

To say that these diseases aren't serious, and that nobody used to worry about them back in the days when they were rife, is a blinkered, gross misrepresentation of the facts. Even if people choose not to vaccinate, they must be made aware that these diseases can prove very serious and that there is a need to seek medical advice if their child is suffering from such a disease.

To say that these diseases are nothing to worry about is misguided and irresponsible.

john Posted - 07/26/2007 : 08:47:33
You can see how they amde it more serious when they had a vaccine to sell http://www.whale.to/vaccines/measles12.html

more striking with chickenpox http://www.whale.to/v/chicken1.html which was harmless in 1890 but dangerous with steroids--then then sell the vaccine because the steroids kill people by taking down their immune system.

The problem most people have with waking up is the nasty realisation the vaccine/drug industry is a psychopath, and the priests are mindlessly following propaganda. 1 in 10,000 at a rough guess know the reality. Although a short step is just to follow homeopathy or naturopathy, you then can avoid finding out the true nature of allopathy.

With anthrax is is pretty obvious they are out to injure their troops, although some say it is an HIV vaccine experiment, but over 500,000 troops have been invalided out.

I think tghis interview nails it on the head http://www.whale.to/v/rapp.html

"There is a great deal of evidence to prove that immunization of children does more harm than good."---Dr. J. Anthony Morris, former Chief Vaccine Control Officer and research virologist, US FDA
Aasa Posted - 07/26/2007 : 01:37:59
I have just finished reading Gary Matsumoto's "Vaccine-A The Covert Government Experiment That's Killing Our Soldiers and Why GI's Are Only the First Victims" ( http://www.vaccine-a.com/ ). That was a real eye-opener! If governments and health agencies which are there supposedly to help protect people's health can covertly experiment on citizens, in this case their own troops, without obtaining informed consent, how can we trust them to be doing the best by our children? These same agencies deny, deny, and deny some more when things start going wrong and adverse reactions occur to whatever experimental vaccines they were injecting in the name of protecting soldiers from possible biological weapons, often without any sort of informed consent. If various agencies in the U.S. can be vehement deniers of ingredients in anthrax vaccines possibly causing signs and symptoms of "Gulf War Syndrome" (such as autoimmune-like and neurological disorders), I am sure that they (including similar agencies in other countries)are equally capable of similar behavior regarding childhood vaccines which have caused problems for some (perhaps even many) children. It seems that they have too much invested in these vaccines, to be able to easily turn around and admit that they may have made a mistake.

When I was a child, back in the 1950s and 1960s, we had no vaccines for measles and mumps, and although most of us contracted these diseases in childhood, we overcame them with little fuss. They were certainly not considered "dread" diseases, at least not in the developed world. Over the years, I have had coughs and colds that were worse than what I ever experienced with measles, mumps, or even chicken pox.
john Posted - 07/26/2007 : 00:21:43
You say that but it just isn't true. No victim of medical propaganda has ever realised it. Having a need to defend vaccination is pretty strange in someone, I presume, with no financial or pecuniary interest in the practice. Why would anyone feel the need to do that otherwise?

A medicine of one group of medical people, and unused by the rest.

Do you think you need a medical education to understand the science, and a geology one isn't good enough? How absurd. That is just ad hominem.

Only simple stats are needed and smallpox vax was so easy to take apart I still have to pinch myself to believe that so many people believe in it.

You don't have any evidence, alluding to such evidence isn't much help to me. I have taken apart vaccination just with the stats.

"The subject of Vaccination, ... is, fortunately, one on which anyone capable of appreciating figures can form a sound opinion." M. BEDDOW BAYLY M.R.C.S., L.R.C.P.

And anyone can see MMR is killing more now than measles would be doing.

Put your evidence out for me to see, otherwise you just sound like the average joe in the street who has all these beliefs but no argument. You can't debate without evidence.

Smallpox saved millions eg? Where is the evidence for that? I have all the stats for the first 120 years of vaccination. Can you point out where I can going wrong in reading the graphs as it looks to me with this one http://www.whale.to/a/biggs_graph_g.html that smallpox increased with vaccination.

john

"Truth is a fruit that can only be picked when it is very ripe."--Voltaire
Lee77c Posted - 07/25/2007 : 14:57:18
John, I hate to point this out, but you were the one that actually brought up conspiracy theories in this thread.

I came to this discussion forum with an open mind. I am extremely disappointed by the conclusions you and Barefoot have drawn on me, especially since you know next to nothing about me. I am not brain-washed, I am not a member of any church, catholic, allopathic or otherwise; indeed I can see the benefit of many forms of natural therapy.

I have conducted my own research into the literature for and against vaccination (not relying on the opinions of Veira Scheibner, who is actually a Geology professor not an expert in Biology, Biochemisty, Pharmacology etc.), and I have done so with an open mind, letting the evidence speak for itself. The evidence still points to the fact that for significant numbers of children, infectious childhood diseases are serious and are cause for concern. From everything that I have seen the over-whelming majority of research also shows that immunisation offers protection to children (and adults for that matter) from many forms of these serious infection.


barefoot1 Posted - 07/25/2007 : 12:57:48
Lee77c you really need to do a lot more research, you have been brainwashed and fear mongered into your beliefs.


I can tell for a fact Lee that many Doctors and Scientists know the truth and do not vaccinate their own children but have to keep mum about it or be struck of.

alumiunium, mercury,formalyhide, etc etc of course they are safe Lee as the drug company and Doctor have told you and like a good conditioned person you beleive them, now tell me why the Doctor, polititian, or drug company who have told all this is safe will not accept $75,000 to drink a standard vaccine and prove to the world that they practise what they preach. see http://www.jabs.org.uk/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=773

HPV vaccine never tested for carcinagenic action or if it will it cause barroness in woman, its a huge bloody experiment our kids and if you cant see that and allow yourself to be brainwashed by pseudo science and scaremongering there is not much hope.

please expalin why tens of thousand of peole contract mumps and measles depste being fully vaccinated?
please expain why they have found vaccine matter in cancer tumours?

Please expain why vaccinated children are 2.5 times more likey to suffer from mental health problems compared to non vaccinated children.

Big Pharma and their puppets in Government are the biggest threat to your families health and well being while they pretend to be the opposite.
john Posted - 07/25/2007 : 12:26:48
You are a member of what Mendelsohn called the Church of Allopathy.

I always enjoy seeing what comes up, but hard to convert as a Catholic.

You didn't answer any of my questions above but call me a conspiracy nut, essentially, which is the usual rationalisation used to block non-allopathic heretical thought http://www.whale.to/a/conspiracy.html

and allude to some studies out there somewhere which either don't exist, or when you look at them don't measure up, as Viera Scheibner found when she looked at about 3,000. And there is plenty of studies to show mercury causes autism. And there are thousands showing vaccines are dangerous and cause numerous diseases http://www.whale.to/vaccine/citations.html

There are 2,000 peer review studies showing vitamin c is good for infections and more, yet it isn't used.

the smallpox vax was killing 25,000 babies every year in the uk 1880, 6,000 in 1921, and that is the gold standard of vaccines!

john

"Vaccination procedures are a highly politically motivated non-science, whose practitioners are only interested in injecting multitudes of vaccines without much interest or care as to their effects. Data collection on reactions to vaccines is only paid lip service, and the obvious ineffectiveness of vaccines to prevent diseases is glossed over. The fact that natural infectious diseases have beneficial effect on the maturation and development of the immune system is ignored or deliberately suppressed. Consequently, parents of small children and any potential recipients of vaccines and any orthodox medications should be wary of any member of the medical establishment (which is little more than a highly politicised business system) extolling the non-existent virtues of vaccination."--Viera Scheibner

Lee77c Posted - 07/25/2007 : 09:37:43
I'm sorry John, but I just don't buy into these 'paranoid x-files conspiracy theories'. My views on measles and other diseases are shaped by a combintation medical facts, my own experiences, people that I've known and their experiences. Infectious diseases are dangerous. I am not part of some conspiracy (and before you suggest it, I am not having my mind controled by means of some electronic chip that has been planted in my brain by the government without my knowledge).

Vaccination does save lives throughout the world. Contrary to what you suggest, this has been proved by repeated peer-reviewed research studies.
john Posted - 07/24/2007 : 18:38:21
To cut to the chase:

The disease
Why do you believe Allopaths who have a pecunary and professional interest in measles vaccination, and the only thing that gets people to vaccinate is fear. They even have a dept (in Germany anyway) dealing with the question of how much fear they need to generate to get people to vaccinaate. Hardly an indication of someone you would want to follow.

Why don't you want to believe naturopaths or nutritional medical doctors, or anti-vaccine MDs who say it is safe? And who don't have a professional or pecunary interest in saying that?

The vaccine
1. Why do you want to vaccinate when the vaccine has never been shown to do anything, eg eliminate deaths? Even if it did get rid of deafness or whatever else it did, do you think that is worth 1 in 58 kids getting autism from the combined vaccines?

2. If the vaccine is killing more people than measles would be doing now, with or without vaccination, (assuming the vax did anything), then whaat is the point in vaccinating, just from a financial point?


Why do you want to trust people when they have suppressed Vitamin C cure for infections such as measles. Does that suggest you trust what they say over measles, over the people who say it is safe?

Hardly. I have enough to worry about with the state of the world, chemtrails, covert-fascism, cell phone towers etc, and with 7 kids to look after, than to worry about some mild diseases for no reason

To me they have lied and I was always told not to ever pay much attention to what a liar says, especially when they have a interest, and huge professional one, vaccination is THE PR cloak of ALLopathy, the Emperors Clothes.

"There is a great deal of evidence to prove that immunization of children does more harm than good."---Dr. J. Anthony Morris, former Chief Vaccine Control Officer and research virologist, US FDA

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