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 Jail for Belgians Who Reject Polio Shot
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loui

United Kingdom
23 Posts

Posted - 03/13/2008 :  09:17:06  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
LONDON (AP) As doctors struggle to eradicate polio worldwide, one of their biggest problems is persuading parents to vaccinate their children. In Belgium, authorities are resorting to an extreme measure: prison sentences.

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5jjIVGbNT33c3Bpk7QixrJ4kTKp1AD8VC13B04

Rosemary

United Kingdom
2068 Posts

Posted - 03/13/2008 :  09:34:18  Show Profile  Send Rosemary an AOL message  Reply with Quote
Two sets of parents in Belgium were recently handed five month
prison terms for failing to vaccinate their children against polio.
Each parent was also fined 4,100 euros ($8,000) ...

Some ethicists back the hardline Belgian stance.

"Nobody has the right to unfettered liberty, and people do not have a
right to endanger their kids," said John Harris, a professor of
bioethics at the University of Manchester.

"The parents in this case do not have any rights they can appeal to.
They have obligations they are not fulfilling."

<http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080312/ap_on_he_me/polio vaccine_prison>http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080312/ap_on_he_me/polio_vaccine_prison
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loui

United Kingdom
23 Posts

Posted - 03/13/2008 :  10:17:28  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
vaccineethics.org

The Associated Press today reported on a fascinating story out of Belgium, where two sets of parents were sentenced to five months in prison as a result of failing to vaccinate their children against polio.
http://blog.vaccineethics.org/2008/03/belgian-parents-face-jail-over-non.html
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Truth Seeker

United Kingdom
978 Posts

Posted - 03/13/2008 :  16:35:53  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
From http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5jjIVGbNT33c3Bpk7QixrJ4kTKp1AD8VC13B04
"Nobody has the right to unfettered liberty, and people do not have a right to endanger their kids," said John Harris, a professor of bioethics at the University of Manchester.
People who refuse to be vaccinated are "free riders," Harris said. "They can only afford to refuse the vaccine because they are surrounded by people who have fulfilled their obligations to the community."

Professor of bioethics? what a made up job title for propaganda reasons.
John you really are quite mad if you think your propaganda regarding free riders and fullfilling obligation to the commuinity is going to work.
What about the obligation of the state to look after vaccine damaged children who did "fullfill their obligations" left high and dry.
My kids are not vaccinated not because i am "free rider" but because they are dangerous and i dont want my kids pumped full of chemicals toxins and stealth viruses,which may stay in their bodies for life and cause untold damage in the future, We have not been told the full story about Polio, and we all saw what the live polio vaccine did to people in the past as if ever they could regain my trust.
I dont believe in the myth of vaccine induced herd immunity as reality has already kicked that myth in the face several times over.
I think you find John that many parents who dont vaccinate are not free riders as i dont care if the rest of society is vaccinated or not with regard to my own vaccine choice for my children so free rider i am not. I do not rely on others getting vaccinated formy childs health and the thought never entered my head during the choice.
I of course care that many are damaged by vaccines.

Being a "Freerider" implies a belief in vaccines to a certain extent which some of us just not do have.


"We are not going to sit in silence we are not going to live with fear"
John Farnham

Edited by - Truth Seeker on 03/13/2008 17:09:41
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Occam48

691 Posts

Posted - 03/13/2008 :  21:54:34  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Yes Truth seeker you are a free rider and selfish, you are relying on herd immunity to protect your kids, so while the rest of us take a finite risk for the good of the community you choose not to.
Will you justify this statement "I dont believe in the myth of vaccine induced herd immunity as reality has already kicked that myth in the face several times over."
There are numerous mathematical models describing the principals of herd immunity and how vaccine uptake levels can affect the benefits of herd immunity, please explain why they are wrong
If you want a good example of introducing new microrganisms into a population where there was no existing herd immunity try reading "Guns Germs & Steel" which gives a very good account of how a few Spanish invaders conquered South America by the accidental introduction of European diseases into a population with no immunity

Edited by - Occam48 on 03/13/2008 21:55:21
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loui

United Kingdom
23 Posts

Posted - 03/13/2008 :  22:16:33  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Herd immunity would not exist unless we were all the same!
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Occam48

691 Posts

Posted - 03/13/2008 :  22:56:21  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Loui: Its a common antigenic stimulus that we all react to giving herd immunity, it doesn't matter if members of the herd react as individuals slightly differently to the same antigen, the effect is that overall the herd is immunized against the same antigen(s) although there will be different degrees of response amongst the individuals. Your statement's nonsense
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Rosemary

United Kingdom
2068 Posts

Posted - 03/13/2008 :  23:13:03  Show Profile  Send Rosemary an AOL message  Reply with Quote
Occam,
Can you confirm that children are actually responding to the vaccine antigens & therefore producing antibodies to these vaccine antigens?
I would like to see some research to support this !

What percentage of children are IMMUNODEFICIENT & therefore not able to produce antibodies to the vaccines.
Has any research been done to verify this ?

How much damage & what type of damage does a child suffer from if he/she cannot produce antibodies to the vaccine antigen?

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John Stone

United Kingdom
1254 Posts

Posted - 03/13/2008 :  23:31:38  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Occam

I could not help noticing how you slunk away after admitting the sham nature of the UK vaccine compensation scheme on another thread. Your scientific truth can only apparently be enforced by treating people shabbily. Now you are back brow-beating people. What brass neck!
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Occam48

691 Posts

Posted - 03/14/2008 :  07:15:26  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
John Stone
What are you talking about????
1 I haven't admitted anything about the Government sponsored vaccine damage scheme
2 I've been away on business so to use your term I have not slunk away
3 Truth Seeker posted that he did not believe in vaccine induced herd immunity as a justification for not protecting his children, I asked for evidence to support his statement in the face of numerous articles describing how vaccine uptake rates can affect the protection afforded by ferd immunity
4 Loui's statements just wrong
5 Does TruthSeeker believe in the concept of "natural" herd immunity ie non vaccine derived, if so what is the difference to vaccine induced herd immunity, except of course in the "natural" version some members of the herd die and go down with the disease but its natural so hey its got to be better!
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John Stone

United Kingdom
1254 Posts

Posted - 03/14/2008 :  07:28:11  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
http://www.jabs.org.uk/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1279&whichpage=2

Re: herd immunity. It presupposes that the products act like magic bullets - knocking out the disease and its source with every jab. However, there may be other reasons why the diseases retreat or become less of a nuisance, although I am not making the claim that they are never effective at all. The idea that you can treat humans like a herd ought to be morally abhorrent. The idea that those that do it can walk away and sneer when things go wrong is morally contemptible.

Edited by - John Stone on 03/14/2008 07:55:28
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Rosemary

United Kingdom
2068 Posts

Posted - 03/14/2008 :  09:21:04  Show Profile  Send Rosemary an AOL message  Reply with Quote
Quote from Occam ": Its a common antigenic stimulus that we all react to giving herd immunityit doesn't matter if members of the herd react as individuals slightly differently to the same antigen, the effect is that overall the herd is immunized against the same antigen(s) although there will be different degrees of response amongst the individuals. "

Hello John,
Occam has actually admitted the Truth about herd immunity in his statement that he made above:
He realises that individuals will react differently [ die or become damaged ] as a response to the same vaccine antigen
"In other words some will react badly to the vaccine & therefore become VACCINE DAMAGED as a result !

All Occam is interested in is trying to make us believe that every child should be vaccinated regardless of how many die or are permanantly damaged as a result.....he is not interested in those poor children that die & are damaged as a result

Occam your comment : "It doesn't matter if members of the herd react as individuals slightly differently to the same antigen"

Occam it certainly does matter if children react badly to a vaccine antigen & or have adverse reactions to the vaccines .....parents don't want to end up with a vaccine damaged child !
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Truth Seeker

United Kingdom
978 Posts

Posted - 03/14/2008 :  12:46:59  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Occam if you call me freerider then i could not care less, your opinions mean nothing to me, if your trying to lay a guilt trip on me has it has failed 100% as i just dont care what you think or anybody else thinks.
Never will i brainwashed like you into thinking i feel any obligations to the state over vaccinations or to the community i just dont have them sorry
I am Happy to be "selfish" is it means my kids are not vaccinated.
Whats this? whooping cough making a comeback where the uptake rate is 95% plus herd immunity is bunkum.
You can deny reality all you want such as measles in fully vaccinated children where uptakes rates were over 95% plus PROOVING VACCINE INDUCED HERD IMMUNITY IS A LIE.

Better luck next time we all know the state or the community does not care about vaccine damaged kids so any parent must be insane to feel any vaccination obligation to society in my view.

I grow my flowers with that horse manure propaganda meme.
Occam you have lost the plot if you think calling us selfish is going to change anyting at all, it only makes people even more likely to not vaccinate and expose your bad science even more and WILL ONLY BACKFIRE on you. My only obligations are to my family and loved ones not to your bad science or BIG PHARMA.
I will spend the rest of days exposing the crimes of Big Pharma not obliging myself to them thank you very much.


"We are not going to sit in silence we are not going to live with fear"
John Farnham


Edited by - Truth Seeker on 03/14/2008 13:24:03
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Aasa

Canada
773 Posts

Posted - 03/14/2008 :  13:20:58  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
a posting on "Paging Dr. Gupta":

I work for a drug company, pharma companies pay big money and lobby
over many years to get their vaccines on the schedule, its the dirty
truth. The other truth is that vaccines are developed in seperate
silos from one another by different companies. They are not clinically
tested as a given group -- in other words, where are the clinical
studies that mimic the real world dosage schedule and I will start to
believe the CDC's position that no harm is caused by vaccines. Where
is the statistical analysis of safety and side effects in the real
world for combined dosing of vaccines? Drug companies use these points
to sell the efficacy of their individual vaccines but, when combined
as groups, no data has been shown to tell parents for sure that
vaccines combined from different companies for different diseases will
meet the safety threshold as a group given over sustained periods of
time in the first two years of life. The vaccine discussion must
continue because new vaccines are being lobbied everyday to be added
to the CDC list of mandated vaccines. As parents we have an obligation
to educate ourselves and understand how vaccines get on the market. We
are the voice of our children. If the scientists and clinicians can
not answer our questions and have an honest debate over it, then we
have nothing but a shell game going on. There is no doubt that
vaccines can save lives on an individual disease basis and prevent
massive outbreaks of fatal disease. However, the CDC has an obligation
to public safety and should force the drug companies to do the work to
understand the interaction of vaccine dosing schedules, active and
inert ingredients used in the manufacture of vaccines, and importantly
answer supply chain questions (the recent heparin debate with
ingredients sourced from China) should have made this issue crystal
clear. I do not want to hear that removal of thimerasol did not
reverse autism rates, you can slice data to your advantage there. The
fact is the number of vaccines given since thimerasol was removed has
probably risen. Where is the data that charts the number of vaccines
given under two years old against the number of autism cases? Where
are our good scientific minds to think this through?
http://www.cnn.com/HEALTH/blogs/paging.dr.gupta/2008/03/parents-in-vaccine-case-still-see-good.html



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Occam48

691 Posts

Posted - 03/14/2008 :  13:25:01  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
John Stone
"Herd Immunity" is a technical term applying to a group of animals it has no moral connatation
Rosemary
Herd immunity is a very simple concept if a sufficiently high % of the population (or herd) is immunized against a disease then the pathogen cannot spread to new hosts and bring about an epidemic, its the same principal that governs the predator/prey balance of wildlife on the African plains.
There are ongoing outbreaks of disease in small subpopulations eg Amish or other closed communities who refuse vaccination when the general population has been immunized.
My comment on differing responses reflects the biological variation seen in humans, its well known that some individuals will need more than one vaccination to develop full immunity.
Vaccination with live vaccine is contraindicated in individuals with a total lack of immune response, its documented in guidance notes. However if an individual has a total lack of an immune response to antigenic stimuli they will unfortunately suffer recurrent bacterial & viral infections and vaccination will be the least of their worries.
If they do not have an immune response what is your hypothesis over hypothetical vaccine damage brought about by an inactivated vaccine such as tetanus toxoid or IPV, inactivated polio vaccine. We discussed tetanus toxoid vaccination on another thread and I'm afraid your concern of an inactive sterile toxoid preparation somehow causing tetanus didn't stand up to scrutiny or the epidemiological facts



Truth Seekers original statement was that because he didn't believe in vaccine derived herd immunity he didn't consider himself a freeloader. So far I haven't seen any evidence from him to substantiate his claim that vaccine induced herd immunity doesn't work. He and his family can live in their little world while the rest of the population protect them with herd immunity.

If vaccine induced herd immunity doesn't work explain the successful erradication programs for smallpox or polio, look at the paper describing polio in Europe in the 50s & 60s and sorry but I don't accept the explanation that its down to mis diagnosis or DDT

Your point about magic bullets is all down to how well the vaccine antigens are developed and how stable the antigenic profile of the pathogen is, it explains why there is no successful vaccine to AIDS yet or why the profile of flu vaccines have to be changed to met new strains. Do you prefer letting nature take its course and "natural" immunity with its side effects of morbidity & mortality in an unvaccinated population???


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John Stone

United Kingdom
1254 Posts

Posted - 03/14/2008 :  13:51:41  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Occam

First of all you are dodging the points that I and Rosemary made about walking away from the dead and maimed of the programme, which is what you have done again. Of course the concept has ethical implications if it has practical consequences for health policy - it might have with animals, it certainly does with the human animal. To suggest otherwise is in fact morally deranged. If you cannot see that, there is no point in talking to you at all, which I suspect is tihs case. We are just all being treated in the gung-ho spirit of collateral damage, to be denied and glossed over. This is mere crypto-fascist deceit.

The flu programme has repeatedly been shown to be a waste of space: they virtually never pick the right viruses, they hype mortality without giving figures for vaccinated or unvaccinated, they ignore innumerable adverse reactions. It is now being admitted that the immune systems of the elderly are too weak to benefit from the vaccine, so they are trying to target the young. Studies have shown that vaccinated young children who also won't benefit directly but are more more likely to be hospitalised with asthma as a result. The vaccines are laced with awful junk like thiomersal. The idiocy of this is endless.

Edited by - John Stone on 03/14/2008 14:14:39
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