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 The "anti-meningitis" vaccine: another turkey?
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Cybertiger

United Kingdom
976 Posts

Posted - 10/22/2008 :  20:50:17  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by FionaS

Occam and Deepika claim there is nothing to study. Would they be so good as to share the info on which this rather limiting position is founded?

We're waiting Deepika and Occam ... with bated breath ...
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FionaS

137 Posts

Posted - 10/23/2008 :  08:24:00  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Occam never got back to me on the "HPV the lie" thread after I challenged his point.

It really annoys me when people come on here, state their opinions as they are The One And Only Truth, accuse other people of not having a clue what they are talking about when they disagree, and then promptly piss off as soon as they can't answer a tricky question.

Perhaps someone will come up with the goods on here. Still waiting for Occam on the HPV thread and Thomasp on the Vaccine Damage one though.


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deepika

United Kingdom
41 Posts

Posted - 10/23/2008 :  23:30:32  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by FionaS

So, I understand from your post that you don't have a clue if this vaccine is safe for my kids, you would prefer to avoid the subject of sub-groups, you would prefer to avoid the subject of how to identify sub-groups, you think it is up to me to test this vaccine for long term safety issues(on my kids perhaps!), and you think people who disagree with you use nonsensical terms and can't read properly. You are however utterly convinced that "The balance of risks and benefits is overwhelmingly favourable" for this vaccine 'cos the MHRA said so.

Are you having a laugh?

Fiona, you ask am I “having a laugh”? Don’t be so ridiculous. The sickness and death that meningitis causes is not in the least degree amusing, even though many here would prefer to think to dismiss this with a wave of the hand as though it were something of no relevancy. I have witnessed the devestation of meningitis first hand, which I doubt any of you here have done so.

Regarding your reply to me, I see you now wish to talk about ecosystems, not just in a human microbiological sense, but in a “wider sense”. OK – have it your way, let's say this is not “nonsense”, but makes very “good sense”. Happy now? Perhaps we can now move on to the issue of blaming vaccination for butterflies disappearing?

I am not avoiding your question about Meningococus subgroups – What you did was phrase a question in the unchallengable form of: “Do I have evidence that something (serotype replacement) will NOT happen?” This “negative” question is not able to be answerable by logic, any more than if I asked you for evidence of a negative such as the question: “Have you evidence that there is NOT life on Mars”.

What I did was ask why you thought there was serotype replacement, as the studies show that not only has group C declined, but other serotypes also. If there was replacement, I would expect that as C declined there would be a similar change to cause an increase the other types, and there was no evidence of this.

I have no “party line”. I merely said that the benefits of the meningitis vaccine are more than its risks. Perhaps if you know different you can provide this evidence yourself.

I have tried to be objective on this board and there are actually vaccinations that I would consider delaying or not giving my own son, so I am not “for” any one “party” unless it is the party to save children’s lives and prevent illness. However I see that many here are of the other “party” where they view no vaccine as being beneficial and all vaccines as being harmful. I have responded in this board when I have been able to contribute to discussion on dangerous infections, which I have seen the effects of in real life and also seen the benefits of vaccination for these. What is your “party line”? Could you tell us what vaccinations you would recommend for your children?

Of course I cannot say if any vaccine is safe for your own child – that is why I asked you to discuss with your own doctor who could do the risk assessment. Assuming your children have nothing that is contraindicating vaccination, the likelehood is they would be
benefited as they would be gaining some protection against meningitis C.

You also are saying that I asked YOU to prove the vaccine was safe rather than the manufacturers and regulators. I do not remember saying this and would be pleased if you could show me when I did this.

So, what I am “concluding from your post” Fiona is this: That you want me to try and prove a negative, that you claim I said things which I did not, that you have no clue about harms inflicted by meningitis and care little that there is something that can help to prevent these, and that you are implying serotype replacement is happening when the evidence shows this has not so.

Deepika
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deepika

United Kingdom
41 Posts

Posted - 10/24/2008 :  00:14:44  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Regarding the meningococcal serotype replacement there is good evidence this is not happening. Of course there is the risk this MIGHT happen, and Fiona you have produced 10-year old references to people saying this MIGHT be a problem if meningitis C vaccination propgrammes were introduced, and have then taken this theoretical concern as solid evidence that it actually HAS happened.

As I showed you from the UK statistics before, this is not seeming to be the case. The HPA figures are here:
http://www.hpa.org.uk/webw/HPAweb&HPAwebStandard/HPAweb_C/1195733812732?p=1201094595391

and the Green book has a graph of the same thing – see Fig 22.3
http://www.dh.gov.uk/en/Publichealth/Healthprotection/Immunisation/Greenbook/DH_4097254

You can see there has NOT been a rise in group B even though vaccination for group C reduced the number of C cases.

There is other evidence also.
A paper on the impact of the UK meningitis C programme is here:
http://jmm.sgmjournals.org/cgi/reprint/51/9/717
Apart from documenting the effectiveness of the vaccine and its benefits (which no-one here seems to believe), they concluded:

“Surveillance of the genotypic and phenotypic characteristics of invasive and carriage isolates has shown NO evidence to date of capsular switching from serogroup C to serogroup B.”

From Europe there is data on this also: In 2006 there was a 3 day scientific meeting to especially look at the issue of serotype switching from vaccine pressure.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17449149

“A 3-day workshop, "Vaccine pressure and Neisseria meningitidis", was held in Annecy, France, 9-11 March 2005, to summarize the current state of knowledge regarding N. meningitidis capsule switching and vaccine pressure from capsular polysaccharide-based N. meningitidis vaccines, including conjugates. Main discussion topics were the host-bacteria relationship and N. meningitidis population, worldwide experience of meningococcal vaccination, and using existing experience to shape the future of meningococcal vaccination strategies. The workshop concluded that there is no current evidence to suggest that serogroup C conjugate vaccine pressure has resulted in meningococcal serogroup switching or replacement.

And then there is work in from Canada following a mass immunisation campaign, reported in JAMA:
http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/285/2/177

The concluded:
”No increase in the overall incidence of MCD (meningococcal disease) due to serogroup B was observed following the mass immunization campaign.”

So I am asking – why do you keep saying that there has been serotype replacement when it has not happened? There was a risk, and it is known it might happen, but it has not happened in practice. To keep banging on about this seems silly and is irrelevant to the significant and real benefits from the vaccine. There are many children alive today who were it not for this vaccine would be dead or brain damaged. For people who are so concerned about things like neurological illness/autism and the problems families face in dealing with these, I really cannot understand why you are all so against something that is preventing these problems afflicting other children. Why are you all so against all vaccines, even those that are not thought to play a part in things like autism?

quote:
[i]Originally posted by Cybertiger[/i]
[br]
We're waiting Deepika and Occam ... with bated breath ...


Finally, I would like to ask Cybertiger (who says he is a doctor/GP) something.
You say you wait with bated breath for my responses – well I have now responded as directly and as much to the point as is possible for me.

Please will you now answer something for once without resort to silly comments to try and insult people.

Cybertiger: Do you give prescribe or give your patients meningococcal vaccination?

Simple YES or NO answer will do, and I am waiting with bated breath.

Deepika
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Cybertiger

United Kingdom
976 Posts

Posted - 10/24/2008 :  07:56:39  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by deepika

Cybertiger: Do you give prescribe or give your patients meningococcal vaccination?

Simple YES or NO answer will do, and I am waiting with bated breath.

Deepika


This is a very silly, irritating and unnecessary question that has nothing to do with the scientific uncertainties that surround the effectiveness and safety (ecological or otherwise) of anti-meningococcal vaccines.
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jennyr

417 Posts

Posted - 10/24/2008 :  12:32:26  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
" I have witnessed the devestation of meningitis first hand, which I doubt any of you here have done so."

How do you know? People still get meningitis and die from it, particularly if the medical treatment is delayed due to a failure to take the concerns of the parents seriously. In one of my links there is a report about how a London hospital cut the death rate from meningitis dramatically by prompt recognition and treatment - dramatic drop - proven results, better treatment. Period.


Meningitis C jab - impossible to know what effect it has had on rates of meningitis OVERALL as death rates dropped anyway due to better recognition and treatment.

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Cybertiger

United Kingdom
976 Posts

Posted - 10/24/2008 :  13:30:37  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by deepika

I have witnessed the devestation of meningitis first hand, which I doubt any of you here have done so.


As a doctor I've had a number of run-ins with the meningococcus ... and when it becomes pathological it can be very frightening. In the early stage of illness it can also be difficult to differentiate from benign infections, a trap for the unwary ... and unlucky patient and doctor alike.

I once saw a young man (asplenic) die in front of my eyes (in hospital in Israel) with a fulminant septicaemia despite prompt and vigorous treatment.

But what has all that got to do with the price of fish?
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FionaS

137 Posts

Posted - 10/24/2008 :  13:35:06  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thanks for your reply Deepika.

I see you are still avoiding the issue of sub-groups of people who have varying reactions to a vaccine. Are you indeed aware that this happens?

Please do not try to make out that I find children suffering from meningitis amusing by willfully misinterpreting my posts. A rather immature, lowdown and nasty trick that I encountered many times before in this debate.

I do not 'now' wish to talk about ecosystems but have been talking about them all along. YOU chose to make your point about human flora because it suited your argument rather than because it answered my original question. Although if you do want to talk about human ecosystems perhaps you would be so good as to comment on the following;

(http://www.vran.org/vaccines/meningitis/men-info.htm)

"The meningococcus (otherwise known as Neisseria meningitidis) is a bacterium that lives up the nose and in the back of the throat of humans. It is spread by coughs and splutters, not by clothing or bedding. At any one time, up to one in six of us carry it in our nasal passages without any particular symptoms. When occasional cases of meningococcal DISEASE occur, this ‘carrier’ rate may rise to one in two people, in times of epidemic DISEASE, all of us may carry it. I emphasise DISEASE because most of us clear the meningococcus on our own over a period of a few months, some people even carry it for years with no symptoms.

There are many different sorts of meningococcus called groups. These are based on differences in the outer coating. They range from A-Z. Those known to cause disease are groups A, B, C, W135 and Y. Once you have ‘carried’ any of the meningococci, you develop protective antibodies to ALL of the groups. If you are unfortunate enough to get DISEASE - when the meningococcus leaves the nose or throat and INVADES the blood stream (SEPTICAEMIA) or the brain or spinal cord (MENINGITIS) - then you only gain immunity to that PARTICULAR group or strain (subdivision of a group)."


How do you think vaccination which targets specific men groups will affect immunity to the other groups and susceptibility to developing meningitis in vaccine recipients? (I have already asked you this question but I can't find your answer in your posts, apologies if you have addressed this point).


Thank you for the links which examine serotype replacement. I don't regard the HPA as an objective source but will certainly be looking in greater detail at the French 2005 meeting. My first stop is always to find out where the funding came from and who exactly the people involved are, and what connections they may or may not have to vaccine manufacturers, then one has to take a careful look at methodology. It's a real shame to have to be so cynical but the shameful abuse of connections and conflict of interest issues surrounding MMR and other vaccines means that such cynicism is inevitable.

For example see the following link for why one most be cautious with regards to Men C expert opinion on safety;

(http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2000/sep/03/tracymcveigh.martinbright)



I don't see anything that addresses the issue of C type mutations (not to be confused with serotype replacement which is entirely different) in your links as raised here;

(http://www.vran.org/vaccines/meningitis/men-parents.htm)

"A disturbing twist to the Alberta outbreak is the discovery of a new strain of invasive meningococcal disease. Dr. Johnson says “The region has experienced significantly increased rates of invasive meningococcal infection since Dec. 1999 associated with a novel serogroup C clone……. previously unrecognized in this province.” The “novel strain” of neisseria meningitidis has been identified by the Alberta Microbiology & Public Health Laboratory as the “causative organism in 92.9 percent (39/42) of the recovered serogroup C isolates.” (1) The lab also compared meningococcal isolates from four previous years in Alberta and could not find a similar strain of the organism."

You ask why I keep going on about this issue. Well simply because we have seen this sort of thing happen with other vaccines so it seems highly biologically plausible that it would happen here too. Jennyr and Minority View have already linked to numerous articles and papers that show this to be so. I'm afraid that I don't trust the people and organisations who are continuing to deny the autism/vaccination link to conduct good science or tell the truth. So when they tell me that something highly plausible, indeed highly likely, is not happening, I am far from convinced.

For example;
(http://www.vaccinationnews.com/scandals/nov_1_02/serotypes.htm)



You ask why we are against all vaccines. There is no short answer to this. I am not against all vaccines as it happens. I am against the current system which allows badly tested vaccines which contain toxic ingredients be be administered to children on a one size fits all basis. I am against the lying and the cover ups. I am against the inadequate and dangerous reporting system for adverse events. I am against the shameful manner in which vaccine damaged people (particularly those damaged by MMR) are treated, or rather not treated. I am against the scaremongering when it comes to the risk of disease. I am against the exaggerating of vaccine efficacy. I am against the contamination of vaccines with monkey viruses like SV40. I am against the indemnity of vaccine manufacturers which relieves them of the responsibility of the damage they knowingly do whilst allowing them to make a ton of money. I am against the witch-hunting of honourable people like Dr Wakefield, Dr Walker-Smith and Dr Murch.

I am against the fact that I trusted my doctor to care for my child, do her no harm and respect our right to informed consent and then he, and the system behind him, let us down. I'm against the fact that my child suffered terribly for years with a distressing condition that she never should have had. I'm against the fact that my child and an unknown number of other children will never regain their full health potential and will carry this burden for the rest of their lives. I'm against the people who know this happens but lie about it to protect their own interests.

If you think about it a little you will see that the above is rather different to 'being against all vaccines' which is actually a pretty meaningless phrase IMO.













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FionaS

137 Posts

Posted - 10/24/2008 :  14:24:43  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
[i]Originally posted by deepika[/i]

Could you tell us what vaccinations you would recommend for your children?


Wierd question, why on earth do you want to know?

I certainly wouldn't have my eldest jabbed with Men C as she had a shock reaction to her second DTP.

See the following;

(http://www.vran.org/vaccines/meningitis/men-parents.htm)
"VRAN has not been able to obtain a product monograph on the Conjugate C vaccine to determine what adjuvants and preservatives are contained in the vaccine. The following contraindications list is published by Lifespan Healthcare NHS Trust, and was sent to us by Catherine Diodati. (8)

* Hypersensitivity to any constituent of the vaccine including:

1. Meningococcal C polysaccharide,
2. Diphtheria toxoid
3. CRM197 carrier protein
4. Tetanus toxoid"



I had to point this out to my doctor when he suggested that it would be a good idea for her to have the vaccine. But hey, what does he know, he's only the guy who's meant to be giving me safety advice on vaccinating my kids.


quote:
[i]Originally posted by deepika[/i]

You also are saying that I asked YOU to prove the vaccine was safe rather than the manufacturers and regulators. I do not remember saying this and would be pleased if you could show me when I did this.


You asked me if I had evidence that the vaccine was not safe. The way I see it is that it is not for the PUBLIC to show a vaccine to be unsafe but for the MANUFACTUERS to make sure it is safe before releasing it.

quote:
[i]Originally posted by deepika[/i]

So, what I am “concluding from your post” Fiona is this: That you want me to try and prove a negative, that you claim I said things which I did not, that you have no clue about harms inflicted by meningitis and care little that there is something that can help to prevent these, and that you are implying serotype replacement is happening when the evidence shows this has not so.



Oh for goodness sake. The 'prove a negative' line is a red herring. I am asking you if there is evidence to show that serotype replacement or mutation has not been detected. I am not asking you to prove a negative. You have posted links that address the question so it looks like you have managed to 'prove a negative' after all.

On a more serious note. Please do not make assumptions about how much I know or care about meningitis because I question the efficacy and safety of a vaccine. You know nothing about me and what experience or knowledge I may or may not have with regards to this condition.

My main concern with this vaccine is the possiblity of new more virulant mutations of the bacteria which are resistant to treatments developing (like the C serotype mutation I have already linked to) and how vaccine induced immunity does not protect to the same degree as natural immunity. In other words I am concerned about meningitis levels and severity.

I find your comment about how I neither understand the severity of meningitis nor care about how it can be prevented offensive and ignorant BTW.

I tend to stop listening to people's arguments once they start accusing me of not caring about how children's suffering can be prevented because I question vaccine safety and long-term consequences.
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Cybertiger

United Kingdom
976 Posts

Posted - 10/25/2008 :  08:16:17  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
With the characteristic aplomb of one of Dr Ben's rankest scientists, TeeHee proves beyond doubt that he is a silly, serotypically useless, unnecessary waste of space. LOL

http://www.badscience.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5945&start=90#p116981
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FionaS

137 Posts

Posted - 10/25/2008 :  12:44:04  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
They're just showing you how much they care Cybertiger.
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whatif

USA
286 Posts

Posted - 10/25/2008 :  14:48:52  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
In the same breath of a certain razor sharp poster, we see the contradiction between Iceland and the UK regarding "herd immunity".

We see Occam post a quote from a BMJ 2003 paper which states..."These observations may be explained by a natural decline in the incidence of serogroup C disease, although this is unlikely."

Huh, unlikely, then how do they explain the SWISS NON-VACCINE data showing basically the same thing. Oh, and why didn't the same happen with Iceland. And, they only looked at adolescents in the BMJ.

That's not the only contradiction folks.

The Iceland link:

http://fhi.no/dav/B7448BB25A.pdf

on slide 15 you see MenB disease on the rise in the under 20's coinciding with vaccination program. Who is the vaccinated group you ask? That's right the under 20's. Looks like some serotype replacement going on.

What I find funny is that just because group B didn't go on the rise in the U.K. they claim no serotype replacement. Could someone please show me the law that says there has to be a rise in incidence. For all we know, group B could have been about a steep decline which was blunted/halted as it went about some replacement.

Then...

jennyr, Occam gave you a broader picture in Iceland. Look at slide 13, and you'll see that the lowest incidence was in 1946 - 1950 and that the rather large epidemic spikes went away before vaccination.

Let us not forget about all the gene modification going on and evidence of antibody and antibiotic resistance.

And so they proceed, despite all this contradictory data, about widening the vaccine schedule and increasing the adverse reaction risk while jabbing infants when they know the vaccine efficacy in this and toddlers is lousy. And we're talking about an incidence before all of this at about 1/100,000 or .001%.
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FionaS

137 Posts

Posted - 10/26/2008 :  09:30:52  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I went back and looked at slide 15 in the Iceland link after your comments Whatif, and you're quite right about the rise in Men B. It's a shame that the years 2004 to 2009 are squeezed into one column of the graph as it distorts the curve somewhat.

Interesting what you say about how Men B could be on a natural lowering of incidence in the UK and this making it practically impossible to monitor serotype replacement in reality.

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